HiPhish 2 hours ago

We need to stop calling it "sideloading", we should call it freely installing software. The term "sideloading" makes it sound shady and hacky when in reality it is what we have been able to do on our computers since forever. These are not phones, they are computers shaped like phones, computer which we fully bought with our money, and I we shall install what we want on our own computers.

  • gruez an hour ago

    >The term "sideloading" makes it sound shady and hacky

    "side" refers to the fact that it's not going through the first party app store, and doesn't have any negative connotations beyond that. Maybe if it was called "backloading" you'd have a point, but this whole language thing feels like a kerfuffle over nothing.

    • unlikelytomato 6 minutes ago

      I get where you are coming from. However, language like this matters when it comes to legislation. People outside there space will be guided by the sideload language to think it's just "something extra on the side so why should I care?"

      • grepex 2 minutes ago

        Agreed. "Sideloading" has been marketed as a boogeyman opening doors to malware, when in fact malware exists on the play store anyway.

  • tomall an hour ago

    I like the term "direct install" which someone suggested in one of the previous threads.

  • alejoar an hour ago

    I wonder where the term started?

    Android itself calls it "install" when you open an APK file, there's not mention of "sideload" in Android at all as far as I can tell.

    • viernullvier an hour ago

      There is, actually, but in a different context. The `adb sideload` command allows you to boot a device from an image without flashing it.

      • chasil 41 minutes ago

        This command is also used to install 3rd-party ROMs.

        There is an option in the TWRP recovery tool to sideload any capable .ZIP file.

  • chasil 43 minutes ago

    If Google provides a permanent mechanism to disable this in developer settings, then this devolves to an inconvenience.

    The setting to allow unsigned apps could be per appstore tracked by an on-device sqlite database, so a badly-behaving app will be known by its installer.

    • sidewndr46 34 minutes ago

      Have you read anything about this? What you are proposing is exactly what is being disabled.

      • chasil 18 minutes ago

        Let's say that Google implements this restriction, but allows F-Droid a permanent permission to disable it for apps installed through their store.

        Then there is both increased protection and accountability.

  • ptrl600 41 minutes ago

    Mandatory googleloading.

  • ta1243 an hour ago

    > when in reality it is what we have been able to do on our computers since forever

    You do realise that's been changing right? Slowly of course, there's no single villain that James Bond could take down, or that a charistmatic leader could get elected could change. The oil tanker has been moving in that direction for decades. There are legions defending the right to run your own software, but it's a continual war of attrition.

    The vast majority of people on this site (especially those who entered the industry post dot-com crash) ridicule Stallman.

    "Dan would eventually find out about the free kernels, even entire free operating systems, that had existed around the turn of the century. But not only were they illegal, like debuggers—you could not install one if you had one, without knowing your computer's root password. And neither the FBI nor Microsoft Support would tell you that."

    https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html

    • gjsman-1000 an hour ago

      If you want a real blackpill (I think this is the right word), consider the famous Cathedral and the Bazaar.

      I recently had a realization: I can name Cathedrals, that are 800 years old, and still standing. I can't name a single Bazaar stall more than 50 years old around any Cathedral that's still standing. The Cathedral's builders no doubt bought countless stone and food from the Bazaar, making the Bazaar very useful for building Cathedrals with, but the Bazaar was historically ephemeral.

      The very title of the essay predicts failure. The very metaphor for the philosophy was broken from the start. Or, in a twisted accidentally correct way, it was the perfect metaphor for how open-source ends up as Cathedral supplies.

      • nerdsniper 14 minutes ago

        There are definitely bazaars which have a very old history. Being that the word "bazaar" has middle-eastern origins it feels appropriate to highlight middle eastern bazaars. Al-Madina Souq in Aleppo is one such bazaar with quite a few shops/stalls/"soups" dating back to the 1300's or 1400's, such as Khan al-Qadi (est. 1450). Khan el-Khalili in Cairo has its economic marketplace origins rooted in the 1100's-1300's.

        • gjsman-1000 12 minutes ago

          Name a single bazaar vendor that's still going more than 50 years in any of them. The bazaar as an institution remains, as it does today, but there's no permanence with a bazaar, just as open-source will never have a permanent victory without becoming a cathedral. Bazaars persist through constant replacement, churn, not victory.

          Windows NT will be with us longer than systemd and flatpak.

      • spookie 21 minutes ago

        I fail to see the link, businesses come and go. Their software dies with them.

        • gjsman-1000 20 minutes ago

          Businesses die. Cathedrals don't. IBM is 114 years old. Microsoft is 50. Google is 27. Disney is 101. Nintendo is 136 (they'll outlive Steam and the next nuclear war at this rate). The COBOL running banks is 65 years old. Windows NT architecture is 32. The platforms become infrastructure, too embedded to replace.

          How many bazaar projects from even 10 years ago are still maintained? Go through GitHub's trending repos from 2015. Most are abandoned. The successes transform - GitLab, Linux, Kubernetes, more Cathedral than Bazaar.

  • znort_ an hour ago

    indeed, but they're not talking about your phone, they're talking about android, which is something you don't buy nor own, you buy a license to use it on the provider's terms.

    linux phones can't come soon enough ...

    your point about the termn "sideloading" is spot on, though. perverting the language is the first step of manipulation: installing software is "sideloading", sharing files is "piracy", legitimate resistance is "terrorism", genocide is "right to defend oneself" ...

    • spankibalt an hour ago

      > "your point about the termn "sideloading" is spot on, though. perverting the language is the first step of manipulation [...]."

      Precisely.

  • viktorcode an hour ago

    I call "running unsigned binaries"

    • RedComet an hour ago

      They are signed, though. Just not by Google.

itg 2 hours ago

Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android, despite most of the people I know using iPhones. If I can't do this anymore, I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them.

  • gdulli an hour ago

    Then you'd be rewarding the company that pioneered and normalized taking away these rights. The next rights you'll lose will probably originate on Apple again years before Google takes them away too.

  • jadbox 2 hours ago

    You can still install apps outside the play store, but the developer does need to verify their signing information. Effectively this means that any app you install must have a paper trail to the originating developer, even if its not on the app store. On one hand, I can see the need for this to track down virus creators, but on the other, it provides Google transparency and control over side loaded app. It IS a concerning move, but currently this is far from 'killing' non-appstore apps for most of the market.

    • detectivestory an hour ago

      From a quick glance at /r/GooglePlayDeveloper/ it looks like Google is just as interested in killing playstore apps! It seems that they only want to support the existing larger apps now. I think they are giving a clear message to developers that its not really worth developing for that platform anymore. I think we will all agree that the playstore needed a purge but they seem to be making it impossible for any new solo devs at this point.

      • jadbox an hour ago

        I have no idea what this means. How does this change "kill playstore apps"?

        • andrewl-hn an hour ago

          Not related to this particular news item, but several high-profile App developers are either killing their apps on Android entirely (like iA Writer) or removing features due to Google tightening submission requirements and increasing costs for apps that integrate with their services.

    • msh 13 minutes ago

      It also makes it easy for google to blacklist a developer, if for example the trump administration don’t like them (the same way apple removing apps documenting ICE).

      • pkulak 2 minutes ago

        And basically every corporation with any business in the US has proven _more_ than willing to instantly capitulate to any demand made by the administration.

    • blaze33 an hour ago

      Pretty sure virus creators could just pick a real ID leaked by the "adult only logins" shenanigans, whereas legit app developers probably wouldn't want to commit identity fraud.

      • gjsman-1000 an hour ago

        If it gets that bad; Google can do what they already do with business listings - send a letter to the physical address matching the ID, containing a code, which then must be entered into the online portal.

        Do that + identity check = bans for virus makers are not easily evaded, regardless of where they live.

    • omnimus an hour ago

      Yeah... no. This is normal with desktop computers. Let's stop handholding people. If I trust the source, I trust the domain... I want to be able to install app from its source.

      Googles/Apples argument would have been much stronger if their stores managed to not allow scams/malware/bad apps to their store but this is not the case. They want to have the full control without having the full responsibility. It's just powergrab.

    • close04 an hour ago

      > need for this to track down virus creators

      I think they’re just going to track down a random person in a random country who put their name down in exchange for a modest sum of money. That’s if there’s even a real person at the other end. Do you really think that malware creators will stumble on this?

      This has to be about controlling apps that are inconvenient to Google. Those that are used to bypass Google’s control and hits their ad revenue or data collection efforts.

  • 63stack 2 hours ago

    Same, I'm tempted to call android just a shittier iPhone now

    • Aachen 24 minutes ago

      What part of cheaper, better, and open source is shittier exactly?

  • brazukadev 2 hours ago

    > Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android

    You still can do that with PWAs in Android. Let's see for how long.

    • _imnothere 2 hours ago

      > PWAs

      And I wonder when can we stop lying to ourselves pretending "web"-apps are real (native) apps?

  • wiether an hour ago

    And in the EU you can install apps outside of the AppStore on your iPhone!

    • gumby271 an hour ago

      But not outside of Apple's control, they have a very similar mechanism to this verification process with 3rd party app stores.

jim201 an hour ago

Antitrust action is badly needed in this area. It is ridiculous that I need permission from my device manufacturer to install software on hardware I own. There is no viable alternative than to live in Apple and Google’s ecosystems. This duopoly cannot be allowed to keep this much control of the mobile platforms.

  • spogbiper an hour ago

    There needs to be a mandatory override for any lock down put in place by a manufacturer. I understand the need for security, but it should be illegal to prevent me from bypassing security if I decide to on my own device. Make it take multiple clicks and show me scary warnings, that's fine.

    Technically Android still allows installation of anything if you use the debugging tool. Maybe that is where we have to draw the line, I'm not sure.

ohman876 32 minutes ago

I know this is side topic but if buying the Android or iPhone hardware gives us hardware we don't control, then what alternatives we realistically have? I do own pinephone (and I was recently reading that they kinda staled with development of new phones hardware), I know about librem.. is there anything else on the market?

freefaler 31 minutes ago

Yes, it's a very unfriendly decision by Google.

However, I don't think they haven't measured the number of users installing apps outside of the Play store. May be they just don't care about the small % of total users who are a large % here on HN.

This is a part of a bigger trend, Cory Doctorow spoke about 13 years ago in his "The coming war on general computing": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg

And this will creep out to the major desktop systems too, Apple is doing it with their stupid "non-verified app" and Windows looks more likely to do so with their "need Microsoft account to login" to windows.

rclkrtrzckr an hour ago

> This logic is flawed: historically, we've seen malware slip through the Play Store—signed and “verified”—several times.

Yeah, check for all the fake sora apps in the play store.

  • bitpush 9 minutes ago

    This is a weak argument. If things have slipped through the cracks with someone actively reviewing it, the alternative cant be 'lets not do any checking whatsoever'.

    There are better arguments against this that other commenters here have provided (including "my device, my rule") but this isnt a strong argument.

hollow-moe an hour ago

They saw apple getting away with it under the DMA so they're just doing the same. You can't do anything about it.

billev2k an hour ago

The Android Developer Blog called it "an ID check at the airport which confirms a traveler's identity but is separate from the security screening of their bags."

From the mouths of rubes, I guess. The ID check at the airport has zero to do with safety or security and everything to do with the airlines' business model (no secondary market for tickets), enforced by government.

  • gruez an hour ago

    >The ID check at the airport has zero to do with safety or security and everything to do with the airlines' business model (no secondary market for tickets), enforced by government.

    If it's really about protecting "airlines' business model", why did TSA recently start requiring REAL ID to board flights? Were airlines really losing substantial amounts of money through forged drivers licenses that they felt they needed to crack down?

casenmgreen 43 minutes ago

This is the beginning of the end of Android.

Google have over-reached.

It is unacceptable to software developers to be unable to install software on their own phones, and this will lead to a successor to Android.

It will take time, but it will now happen.

  • bitpush 10 minutes ago

    > beginning of the end of Android.

    You underestimate how much money & effort it takes to make an operating system.

kypro 2 hours ago

As someone who doesn't really care about apps, if I wanted to move away from Android what phones and OSs are worth considering?

moffkalast an hour ago

As with manifest v3, Google is once again misusing their position as a source of open standards to benefit their adware business. Hopefully the EU fines them once again.

A weird hill to choose to die on given that in practice it's not really a meaningful percentage of people that are using adblockers and the negative PR they get from these oversteps is massive.

  • bitpush 11 minutes ago

    Didnt EU rule that it was OK for Apple to do, and Google is just just mirroring that?

nadermx 2 hours ago

Why having your own website is essential

bryan_w 38 minutes ago

Meh, I can still install what I want via adb. It's probably a good thing most people won't be able to click a link and have a new program installed by an anonymous person. Especially in an ecosystem where .apks are passed around manually

mixologic an hour ago

If you want to install software on your Microsoft Windows computer, it has to be signed by a verified developer, otherwise you get an overridable warning that the developer cannot be verified, the software may contain malware etc.

If you want to install software on you MacOS machine, the same thing applies. It must come from a verified developer with an apple account, otherwise you get a warning and must jump through hoops to override. As of macos15.1 this is considerably more difficult to override.

If you want to install iOS apps, the apps have to be signed by a verified developer. Theres no exceptions.

I just dont see a future where being able to create and publish an app anonymously is going to be supported.

Becoming a verified developer is a PITA, and can take a while or be impossible (i.e. getting a DUNS number if you're in a sanctioned country might be not at all possible) but at the same time, eliminating the ability of our devices from running any old code it downloads and runs is a huge safety win.

  • kspacewalk2 an hour ago

    I'm okay with overridable warnings, having to open system settings to override the verification, etc. It's a "huge safety win" for the 80% of users who don't really know what they're doing, security wise. But not for me.

    I won't be using any OS that doesn't allow me to step outside its walled garden, if I have any alternatives at all. With macOS it's quite simple - the second they won't allow apps from unverified/unsigned developers, I'm switching to Linux. On mobile, I might as well switch to iOS, since I'm not really sure what else Android offers anymore that's so compelling, other than being able to install apps directly. And then I'll just wait for a Linux phone or something.

  • yjftsjthsd-h an hour ago

    There is a world of difference between "the OS throws up a bunch of warnings" and "the OS won't let you run unsigned software"

  • Krssst an hour ago

    > I just dont see a future where being able to create and publish an app anonymously is going to be supported.

    This is strongly needed if surveillance laws like Chat Control are not to be trivially bypassed. This way applications that don't offer governments the required surveillance features can be banned and the developpers can be sued. Not looking forward to that.

  • ptrl600 an hour ago

    I'd be fine if it was just any old code "it" downloads. The problem is that it's any old code "I" download too.

  • throw10920 39 minutes ago

    > eliminating the ability of our devices from running any old code it downloads and runs is a huge safety win

    No, this is just false. There's numerous, well-documented instances of malware making it past gatekeepers security checks. This move is exclusively about Google asserting control over users and developers and has nothing to do with security or safety.

    The only "huge safety win" comes from designing more secure execution models (capabilities, sandboxing, virtual machines) that are a property of the operating system, not manual inspection by some megacorp (or other human organization).

  • gumby271 an hour ago

    I dunno man, it doesn't feel like a "huge safety win" that my computer has to check with a singular US tech company before it will let me use any software on it.